We must also acknowledge that Israel continued building settlements, destroying hopes of a two state solution while isolating Gaza and the West Bank creating areas of desperation, isolation without really any Hope of building a future (thus creating a ferocious nihilism).
I also don’t see any kind of peace between Palestine and Israel after this. This slaughter—whole families wiped out, aid workers and humanitarians “accidentally” killed, IDF targeting ambulances (yes this has happened!) is ultimately only going to strengthen the resentment and hate for Israel Palestinians will have.
Hamas calculated perfectly that the kindhearted people of the world would not blame Hamas for using schools, hospitals and ambulances for military purposes because it is harder to prove that there were armed people inside the ambulances than to show a bombed ambulance or school. As for the Palestinian hate for Israel, it started even before Israel declared it's independence. Palestinians chose not to declare their independence after UN resolution of 1948 because they wanted Israel eliminated, which is proved by the continuous attacks on Israel: hijacking of an airplane with Israeli passengers, murdering the entire Israeli Olympic team - all that happened well BEFORE the settlements, the ambulances targeted etc.
This is a very biased view. To be clear there is no excuse for what Hamas has done and if they cared for their fellow Palestinians at all they should unilaterlly stop fighting. Unfortunately when you take away a peoples land and provide no hope for a better future terrorism happens. BTW, Manachem Begin was a terrorist. Also not sure why this excuses the step-by-step annexation of the West Bank, now openly discussed by the Israeli right wing. Areas A, B and C established a prison system. Decades have gone by violating human rights including jailing of children as the world has looked the other way - the US in particular. Anyway the most important point is we can point fingers at all the bad actors and never resolve this. Or we can say enough is enough of this senselessness. I don't see the contradiction in being both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian as long as all are pro human rights and dignity.
Thank you for your unbiased view. So there is an excuse for kidnapping and killing an Olympic team BEFORE the settlements began? Palestinians are absolved of any sins, but Israel is not. I have always been against settlements on the land that was not partitioned to Israel in 1948, but at least I understand that Israel is the only country that has been attacked continuously, but as continuously has been condemned by the likes of Soviet Union, China and Iran, and now Western progressives as allies of Putin and Grand Ayatollah Khamenei. At some point Israelis stopped believing in the success of any peace negotiations with Yasser Arafat and Co. Let's not forget why Yasser Arafat was expelled from Jordan and Egypt and why Egyptian border with Gaza is sealed even tighter than the Israeli part. No Gazans are allowed in Egypt, but Gazans were allowed in Israel. Yet, Israel is the bad guy after removing all the settlements 20 years ago. I understand that Palestinian children in UN-run schools are taught to hate the Jews. Not a single school in Israel teaches children to hate Palestinians. 20% of Israelis are Palestinians. Where are the Jews of Gaza who used to live there for centuries until the Palestinian independence?
First, Thanks THG for the follow-up. To be clear the Munich attack was terrorism and in no way defensible, as were the high jackings of that era, and other terrorist attacks that came along with the intifadas that killed many innocent Israelis. Also appreciate your comment on settlements. To be fair to both of us, it is impossible to intelligently discuss this issue in short posts. I do feel the Palestinians have been the underdogs in this whole mess. Yes, absolutely, there have been bad actors on their side - Hamas definitely so. On the other hand, their society and fabric has been beaten down - I would argue very systematically by Israel with the goal of one, driving despair so Palestinians leave and two, forcing them to take desperate measures. Honestly, if my children were killed by the IDF for throwing stones or my olive grove destroyed by settlers, or endured any one of a number of attacks on my dignity or hope for a better future I could see going down a dark path. The leadership in Israel is openly calling for the expulsion of all Palestinians. If Jordan or Egypt took in Palestinians that would be the end of any Palestinian state. Anyway, on that the probability of a Palestinian state is next to zero. Because you are part of this community, I know you are a thoughtful person and would welcome the chance to discuss. I hope this post helps us understand each other better. Again, so much to this - these posts do not do the subject justice. I’ll end with this. I support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself. I do not support actions by any country that violate human rights - and I include the the US in that. I know that’s a bit naive and the world is a messy place, but if we honored human rights in our policies the world would be a better place. It would strengthen the US. One of my heroes, John McCain, took this view. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/opinion/john-mccain-rex-tillerson-human-rights.html
Not to mention moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a move designed to indicate that the US recognizes that holy city as belonging to Israel alone. I appreciate the analogy to the US striking Afghanistan after 9/11 to defend ourselves. But we were wrong to invade Iraq, and we were lied to about the relationship of Iraq to the attack on American soil. So, if the analogy stands, let's remember that we did wrong things after we were attacked,too. I stand with Israel to defend itself. I do no stand with Israel to indiscriminately destroy a whole people. Especially since Israel's been breaking international law for decades.
Why do you think that Israel is indiscriminately destroying the whole people? Hamas publishes death numbers that include Hamas fighters who are legitimate targets. Israel estimated combatants deaths at at least 15,000. UN's own admission puts number of civilian deaths in military conflicts at 90% of total deaths. In Gaza, it now stands at 60%, in the densely populated urban area, with military installations located underneath civilian infrastructure. If Israel is killing indiscriminately as you imply, they are very bad at it, Hamas is doing much better in that respect. As far as indiscriminate killing goes, the last barrage of shelling by Iran killed a Palestinian from Gaza who Iran claims to defend. If Israeli air defense didn't intercept most of the missiles, even more Palestinians would have been killed.
Suggesting that 60% casualties being civilians is an acceptable amount to be killed by one of the best funded and trained militaries in the world because conflicts elsewhere can result in more civilian deaths is preposterous. Neither number is acceptable, and comparing Israel's capabilities to prevent deaths in a war that is effectively shooting into a fishbowl, versus civil wars in 3rd world countries, is doubly so. Two things can simultaneously be immoral. And even if you ignore the "just 60%" it is no secret that the Israeli government and extremists who back it have been planning to clear out Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank for decades, and have been allowing Israelis to break international law by forcibly removing Palestinians in the West Bank to settle there. What Hamas did was wrong, I'm not saying that they deserve a pass, but the Israeli government is using it as an excuse to clear Gaza... By any expedient means.
The fact that hostages remain a year later is testament to Netanyahu’s unrelenting belief that he must destroy Hamas & Hezbollah above all. As a Jew, I agree they deserve to be eliminated. As a human, it is heartbreaking to see the hostages not only held hostage by Hamas but by but thousands of years of a conflict that remains unresolved with little hope for the future.
I struggle to understand how the massive civilian deaths and the incursion into Lebanon which has also resulted in civilian deaths and the destruction of parts of Beirut as well as the terrorization of its citizens can be justified by what happened on October 07th. If you could explain how the civilian deaths and the invasion of Lebanon is justified, I will be grateful. I will also share your explanation with my son's godmother, who is a Lebanese-born woman who came to America 43 years ago fleeing war and became an American citizen, married, had a child, got her therapy degree and certification, and then returned to Beirut to help her aging mother who has since passed. Now she is living in terror again and I do not understand how this is any more justified than the 23,000+ civilian deaths in Gaza. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I registered as a paid subscriber solely for the purpose of posting this comment.
Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm not looking for solace but I would appreciate if Mr. Kinzinger would address my question about how these losses are justified by the original events of October 7th. I do know that the Middle East is a problem that we cannot solve alone, and I know that Trump would pull us out of NATO or at least diminish our involvement so even though I am troubled by events of the current day, I think Trump would make it worse and he certainly would make the Ukraine situation worse.
Adam has told us he reads all the postings. He also makes notes of questions and when he can, he'll address them in a forum. I don't know if you're a Country First member, but he's having a "Campfire" event tonight.
Your comment is well stated. I do hope you stick around though, Corinne. Although there are strong differences here on the Israel/Palestine situation, Adam is a good, knowledgeable man and a voice of reason in all of this madness.
I can only imagine the disillusionment of your son’s godmother. And likely building resentment along with even more of the Lebanese people.
I'm a paid subscriber to The Bulwark and as such, do hear Mr. Kinzinger's views from time to time in that venue. I do not agree with most of his policy views, but I have admired his and Ms. Cheney's decision to put their nation over their careers and their political party. Those are big chips that do weigh the scale a bit in my assessment of them each. Otherwise, I'm a progressive pro-choice anti-war Democrat, decidedly Never-Trumper, who struggles to make sense of what has happened to the USA in the last twenty years.
Well, I do not know if 'not enough people were paying attention, Dems especially' because I certainly was as were most of my cohorts and colleagues in my native Kansas City. We watched our state decline as it went 'red' and worked hard to keep Kansas City 'blue' but the bulk of the state just slid into MAGA territory as Trump took over the Republican party. That was one of the reasons that I left the state. I do think the Republicans were not paying attention to the fomenting unrest in their party. I was, because I was married to a disgruntled white male Republican. And I certainly know plenty of people active in all level of politics, so I'm not sure that I agree about people not paying enough attention.
I meant Dems in general and before the past 9 years, enough definitely weren’t. Also, Republicans vote on voting day, whereas Democrats don’t (historically). But statistically it somehow balances out (although it doesn’t feel like it).
I am sooo exhausted—as so many of us are, Corinne. I am relieved I have an exit plan in place, although I always knew I’d retire outside of this country anyway b/c it is very clear I won’t be able to afford to do so here in the U.S.
Adam, here is one topic we can never agree on. The creation of the Israel state was wrong in the first place. We cannot simply steal a homeland from one people and gift it to another. Zionism is inherently wrong. But once it was done, fait accomplé, it became moot. Israel exists, and has built a prosperous country - largely with our help and continuing massive support. Since its creation, it has practiced cruelty and oppression on the native population, much the same as we have on our indigenous people. They have taken everything, and given nothing in return. They continue to commit crimes against humanity and genocide....With. Our. Help.
Thank you for your insightful letter. This war and America’s unwavering contribution to it does not bode well with many people, especially young ones. I am no pollster, but I am involved with many organizations where these people’s views are widespread. They are insistent on voting for Stein and in such an absurdly close race, Harris really needs those votes.
I wish those facts you mentioned—especially that they were close to a two state solution—were widely reported. I have heard nothing about them. I also don’t like AIPAC having the influence they do. I don’t like anyone doing that, but of course—that’s politics. 🙄 They made sure two Dem candidates running for office were defeated, simply because they voiced their anti war stance.
Thank you for your note. I too am praying for peace. I am concerned about Jill Stein, a spoiler who shows up every so often. Have you had any success in getting your young friends to not vote for Stein? She paid for by the right wing to install Trump who they would dislike. This is not the time to be a single issue voter. Please remind them what happened under Bush, because Nader wouldn't drop out
Perhaps some have! 🤞🏼 A lot of my participation is online via varying organizations and publications. I absolutely mention the 2000 election, and I also remind them that it will be even worse for Palestinians and other Arab nations under Trump.
I tell them that as much as I agree with some of their sentiments, we must support Democracy first. And continue to work from there.
I'm very skeptical there was a realistic proposal for a two-state solution. Politicians have been falling back on this for years and look the other way as settlements expand. At this point there is a fraction of the land that was once available for a Palestinian state. Settlements have taken much of the prime land and resources. What is left is fractured. Israel, under the argument that it's security must come first, will place many restrictions on a Palestinian state. This all boils down to a very difficult pill to swallow for the Palestinians - probably too hard without concessions. Given the turn in Israeli politics, and now the increased hatred, prospects for a two-state solution are dimmer than ever.
As for AIPAC they will seek to destroy anyone who begins to criticize Israel – even when it concerns basic human rights and freedom which I hope are still American values.
Israel is in a horrible situation, made worse by its leader. Imagine that the US was attacked daily by rockets from a hostile country. Do you think the US would stand for that? We would not.
Yet. Israel ignored many of these hits because of their iron dome which helped minimize civilian deaths. The rockets are shot at you daily, even hourly. How would you feel?
Then imagine that a group of Americans massacred, raped, tortured, burned people alive and filmed themselves murdering their fellow Americans. It's horrific is it not?
This happened to Israel only more unimaginable. So Israel when into Gaza which has no bomb shelters for its citizens. Just tunnels for Hamas to escape to. Yes, whats happening in Gaza is horrible. The deaths hurt my heart. In our synagogue we pray for the end of the suffering for everyone. Hopefully a new government can be installed in Gaza that puts its people first -and doesn't build homes on top of tunnels. One that doesn't it rocket launchers in the mosque, or schools.
Israel needs new leadership. Its citizens are calling for peace. I've heard that in Lebanon their people were helping Israelis to locate Hezbollah, as they want them gone. My father, a Marine in WW11 says war is hell. It truly is. And much more complicated.
First of al, thank you so much, Adam, for your stance on this issue. And Sally, thank you for expressing my thoughts as a proud Jewish American, and articulating the complexity of so many Jews feeling for the suffering of ALL of the innocents, loving Israel but hating its government, and experiencing here in the U.S. and around the world the skyrocketing of anti-Semitism. I agree that there is no way that Americans would stand for an October 7 happening here. On October 8 and this entire past year, Iran-backed Hezbollah rained rockets on Israel's north, ultimately displacing 60,000 Israelis, adding to all those who were displaced on Oct. 7, while Iran-backed Hamas deliberately hid among civilians. And now Iran is directly involved. Tragically, this trauma in Israel is underreported by major media. Israel left Gaza in 2005, and was about to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia when Hamas broke the ceasefire and attacked. So how much faith should they place in a two state solution, with one of the states run by an organization where the annihilation of Israel is in their very origin contract? It IS so very, very complicated...
Yes! I am very blessed. My dads really with it and even created a wonderful children's book last year - Oscar Goes to the Vet, about his best friend who's a WW11 Marine who became a veterinarian Im so sorry for the loss of your uncle. It's hard. May his memory always be for a blessing.
Your father is still alive? That's terrific! We lost my great uncle Clark 2 1/2 years ago at the age of 101. He always proudly wore his WWII Veteran cap.
"simply because they voiced their anti war stance" Cori Bush had a lot of baggage besides her "anti war stance" of not supporting Israel's ability to defend itself, including the Iron Dome. Not many tears in St Louis when she was defeated.
I don't like ANY PACs. I think all lobbying should be outlawed as well.
What in your opinion is the influence that AAPAC has? I am assuming you mean the Arab American Political Action Committee and not the African American Parent Advisory Council.
Thanks for your input! I certainly don't know everything.
When you say Israel is targeting Hezbollah, of course Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel unrelentingly since Oct 7 and 80k Israelis and Arabs living in Israel have been displaced from their homes. The lack of interest in understanding the region and quickness to condemn Israeli at every turn is most disconcerting. With the billions in aid Gaza has received since Israel left the region, they could have had another Boca instead of tunnels to destroy a neighboring country.
The human toll on all sides is tragic beyond expression, especially because of the centuries-old animosities stemming from religious differences. I am sick of religion seeding and in many cases amplifying hatreds among peoples and nations. We already have racism to contend with. We don't need more reasons to kill each other.
This region of the world has always been associated with tension and tenuous “peaceful” co-existence between Israel and the Palestinians. It has literally been ongoing for thousands of years. I believe Israel has the absolute right to exist in their own country and at the same time so do the Palestinians. That being said, Hamas bought this conflict on themselves by taking the gamble that they could kill Israelis and somehow the result would be favorable to them. Israel is in between a rock and a hard place with little choice but to defend itself and try to rescue the hostages. It’s absolutely heartbreaking that innocent civilians are caught in the crossfire. There are no easy answers for anyone involved in conflicts/wars in the Middle East. Thank you Adam, for the information today.
Thank you Adam for explaining this confusing and heartbreaking situation. I also appreciate what everyone else has written. It is easy to see why there are so many strong views with this crisis. I just know I worry about all this hate in the world. I've been praying for peace in the Middle East, Ukraine and here at home. This helps me feel I am doing something to aid these situations by turning it over in our 3pmEST short-prayer group 🙏. Hopefully Adam and his family are feeling our support too!
Adam thank you for this important message. Unfortunately So many college students have no understanding of the real world in the Middle East and become easy pawns of terrorists using these students to carry their message attacking Israel. If the United States would have responded to and attacked Hezbollah in 1983 after they killed 241 American soldiers in Beirut, Hezbollah would not be the strong terrorist group they are today. Terrorists get embolden when they are not punished for their horrible deeds.
The goal of Iran and its terrorist groups—Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi—is to destroy Israel (and to cause the West to stop supporting it). The fact that the terrorists build their support system under civilian schools, hospitals and residential neighborhoods, whether in Gaza or Lebanon, proves that they are hoping to either hide there successfully or else to cause Israel to destroy civilians targets above the underground hiding places and cause this very chaos. The insidious evil behind the Oct 7th attack on Israelis and the holding of the hostages in those very tunnels proves that Hamas wants civilian deaths in order to isolate Israel from the Western supporters. If they had cared a bit about their own people, they would have returned the hostages, and never perpetrated the sneak attack on Oct 7. Nor would they continue to lob missiles and bombs at Israel.
The death toll amongst the civilian population is horrendous but needs to be laid at the feet of the terrorists who were given the vote of those very civilians in Gaza. Lebanon as well has been basically ruled by the terrorists, making the real government into a ghost. Of course Israel needs to take as much care as possible to protect civilians. But we need to weigh all these issues through a lens of truth and justice, which is difficult, but not impossible.
I do fear that young people tend to weigh issues through their feelings about things, which I suppose, is what the terrorist groups are hoping the West will do. As we know, the Trump approach is about stirring up angry and unbalanced emotions regarding issues not based in fact; we of all people should recognize that approach and not go down that road with the Palestinian situation.
Thank you for that Adam. You are absolutely correct in everything you said. Most depressing to us is the silence, if not overt antisemitism of our supposed allies after 10/7.
Adam says: "...Israel must carry out more precise attacks..."
Our own SF, SpecOps and CIA use this type of taking out targets to minimize injuring or killing noncombatants by means of a "scalpel," rather than spray and pray. The means to a successful capture or end of the target can only happen with the most up to date intel - HUMINT, SIGINT, et. al. Israel has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world - Mossad. Their training is intense, using small units of men and women; ergo, the scalpel. Remove the head of the snake, the rest typically follows afterwards.
I appreciate your insights and valid points. Israel indeed does have Mossad, thus I question the plausibility of Hamas getting through in the manner that they did. I’m no conspiracy theorist, but Bibi and the IDF have been looking for a reason for a full scale attack for a very long time.
The whole situation in the ME is just sickening and it isn’t going to end after this… 💔
This. I don't think it's unreasonable to question how Mossad, arguably the best intelligence agency in the world, had no clue. It's also hard to understand how one of the best trained and funded militaries in the world have such a hard time but killing civilians and aid workers. Is the goal to destroy Hamas, or is the goal to destroy Palestinians?
"Precise Attacks": We said that is what we did in Iraq and yet I remember news reports showing all the civilian casualties of women and children after our 'precise' attacks. And I remember the outrage of people here regarding that. There were increasing protests to end the war.
Thank you for bringing up this situation in the middle east!Netanyahu continues to fight the Hamas and now Hezbollah.He needs to get the remaining hostages out-cease fire!It is a very tough and confusing situation that is going on right now.
We must also acknowledge that Israel continued building settlements, destroying hopes of a two state solution while isolating Gaza and the West Bank creating areas of desperation, isolation without really any Hope of building a future (thus creating a ferocious nihilism).
I also don’t see any kind of peace between Palestine and Israel after this. This slaughter—whole families wiped out, aid workers and humanitarians “accidentally” killed, IDF targeting ambulances (yes this has happened!) is ultimately only going to strengthen the resentment and hate for Israel Palestinians will have.
Hamas calculated perfectly that the kindhearted people of the world would not blame Hamas for using schools, hospitals and ambulances for military purposes because it is harder to prove that there were armed people inside the ambulances than to show a bombed ambulance or school. As for the Palestinian hate for Israel, it started even before Israel declared it's independence. Palestinians chose not to declare their independence after UN resolution of 1948 because they wanted Israel eliminated, which is proved by the continuous attacks on Israel: hijacking of an airplane with Israeli passengers, murdering the entire Israeli Olympic team - all that happened well BEFORE the settlements, the ambulances targeted etc.
This is a very biased view. To be clear there is no excuse for what Hamas has done and if they cared for their fellow Palestinians at all they should unilaterlly stop fighting. Unfortunately when you take away a peoples land and provide no hope for a better future terrorism happens. BTW, Manachem Begin was a terrorist. Also not sure why this excuses the step-by-step annexation of the West Bank, now openly discussed by the Israeli right wing. Areas A, B and C established a prison system. Decades have gone by violating human rights including jailing of children as the world has looked the other way - the US in particular. Anyway the most important point is we can point fingers at all the bad actors and never resolve this. Or we can say enough is enough of this senselessness. I don't see the contradiction in being both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian as long as all are pro human rights and dignity.
Thank you for your unbiased view. So there is an excuse for kidnapping and killing an Olympic team BEFORE the settlements began? Palestinians are absolved of any sins, but Israel is not. I have always been against settlements on the land that was not partitioned to Israel in 1948, but at least I understand that Israel is the only country that has been attacked continuously, but as continuously has been condemned by the likes of Soviet Union, China and Iran, and now Western progressives as allies of Putin and Grand Ayatollah Khamenei. At some point Israelis stopped believing in the success of any peace negotiations with Yasser Arafat and Co. Let's not forget why Yasser Arafat was expelled from Jordan and Egypt and why Egyptian border with Gaza is sealed even tighter than the Israeli part. No Gazans are allowed in Egypt, but Gazans were allowed in Israel. Yet, Israel is the bad guy after removing all the settlements 20 years ago. I understand that Palestinian children in UN-run schools are taught to hate the Jews. Not a single school in Israel teaches children to hate Palestinians. 20% of Israelis are Palestinians. Where are the Jews of Gaza who used to live there for centuries until the Palestinian independence?
First, Thanks THG for the follow-up. To be clear the Munich attack was terrorism and in no way defensible, as were the high jackings of that era, and other terrorist attacks that came along with the intifadas that killed many innocent Israelis. Also appreciate your comment on settlements. To be fair to both of us, it is impossible to intelligently discuss this issue in short posts. I do feel the Palestinians have been the underdogs in this whole mess. Yes, absolutely, there have been bad actors on their side - Hamas definitely so. On the other hand, their society and fabric has been beaten down - I would argue very systematically by Israel with the goal of one, driving despair so Palestinians leave and two, forcing them to take desperate measures. Honestly, if my children were killed by the IDF for throwing stones or my olive grove destroyed by settlers, or endured any one of a number of attacks on my dignity or hope for a better future I could see going down a dark path. The leadership in Israel is openly calling for the expulsion of all Palestinians. If Jordan or Egypt took in Palestinians that would be the end of any Palestinian state. Anyway, on that the probability of a Palestinian state is next to zero. Because you are part of this community, I know you are a thoughtful person and would welcome the chance to discuss. I hope this post helps us understand each other better. Again, so much to this - these posts do not do the subject justice. I’ll end with this. I support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself. I do not support actions by any country that violate human rights - and I include the the US in that. I know that’s a bit naive and the world is a messy place, but if we honored human rights in our policies the world would be a better place. It would strengthen the US. One of my heroes, John McCain, took this view. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/opinion/john-mccain-rex-tillerson-human-rights.html
Not to mention moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a move designed to indicate that the US recognizes that holy city as belonging to Israel alone. I appreciate the analogy to the US striking Afghanistan after 9/11 to defend ourselves. But we were wrong to invade Iraq, and we were lied to about the relationship of Iraq to the attack on American soil. So, if the analogy stands, let's remember that we did wrong things after we were attacked,too. I stand with Israel to defend itself. I do no stand with Israel to indiscriminately destroy a whole people. Especially since Israel's been breaking international law for decades.
Why do you think that Israel is indiscriminately destroying the whole people? Hamas publishes death numbers that include Hamas fighters who are legitimate targets. Israel estimated combatants deaths at at least 15,000. UN's own admission puts number of civilian deaths in military conflicts at 90% of total deaths. In Gaza, it now stands at 60%, in the densely populated urban area, with military installations located underneath civilian infrastructure. If Israel is killing indiscriminately as you imply, they are very bad at it, Hamas is doing much better in that respect. As far as indiscriminate killing goes, the last barrage of shelling by Iran killed a Palestinian from Gaza who Iran claims to defend. If Israeli air defense didn't intercept most of the missiles, even more Palestinians would have been killed.
Suggesting that 60% casualties being civilians is an acceptable amount to be killed by one of the best funded and trained militaries in the world because conflicts elsewhere can result in more civilian deaths is preposterous. Neither number is acceptable, and comparing Israel's capabilities to prevent deaths in a war that is effectively shooting into a fishbowl, versus civil wars in 3rd world countries, is doubly so. Two things can simultaneously be immoral. And even if you ignore the "just 60%" it is no secret that the Israeli government and extremists who back it have been planning to clear out Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank for decades, and have been allowing Israelis to break international law by forcibly removing Palestinians in the West Bank to settle there. What Hamas did was wrong, I'm not saying that they deserve a pass, but the Israeli government is using it as an excuse to clear Gaza... By any expedient means.
Adam, thank you for this concise and cogent explanation of a very confusing situation. Praying for peace and compassion for all involved.🙏🏻
Agreed thank you Adam!!!
The fact that hostages remain a year later is testament to Netanyahu’s unrelenting belief that he must destroy Hamas & Hezbollah above all. As a Jew, I agree they deserve to be eliminated. As a human, it is heartbreaking to see the hostages not only held hostage by Hamas but by but thousands of years of a conflict that remains unresolved with little hope for the future.
I struggle to understand how the massive civilian deaths and the incursion into Lebanon which has also resulted in civilian deaths and the destruction of parts of Beirut as well as the terrorization of its citizens can be justified by what happened on October 07th. If you could explain how the civilian deaths and the invasion of Lebanon is justified, I will be grateful. I will also share your explanation with my son's godmother, who is a Lebanese-born woman who came to America 43 years ago fleeing war and became an American citizen, married, had a child, got her therapy degree and certification, and then returned to Beirut to help her aging mother who has since passed. Now she is living in terror again and I do not understand how this is any more justified than the 23,000+ civilian deaths in Gaza. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I registered as a paid subscriber solely for the purpose of posting this comment.
Welcome Corinne! I hope you get your answers and find solace with hearing from other writers.
Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm not looking for solace but I would appreciate if Mr. Kinzinger would address my question about how these losses are justified by the original events of October 7th. I do know that the Middle East is a problem that we cannot solve alone, and I know that Trump would pull us out of NATO or at least diminish our involvement so even though I am troubled by events of the current day, I think Trump would make it worse and he certainly would make the Ukraine situation worse.
Adam has told us he reads all the postings. He also makes notes of questions and when he can, he'll address them in a forum. I don't know if you're a Country First member, but he's having a "Campfire" event tonight.
Your comment is well stated. I do hope you stick around though, Corinne. Although there are strong differences here on the Israel/Palestine situation, Adam is a good, knowledgeable man and a voice of reason in all of this madness.
I can only imagine the disillusionment of your son’s godmother. And likely building resentment along with even more of the Lebanese people.
I'm a paid subscriber to The Bulwark and as such, do hear Mr. Kinzinger's views from time to time in that venue. I do not agree with most of his policy views, but I have admired his and Ms. Cheney's decision to put their nation over their careers and their political party. Those are big chips that do weigh the scale a bit in my assessment of them each. Otherwise, I'm a progressive pro-choice anti-war Democrat, decidedly Never-Trumper, who struggles to make sense of what has happened to the USA in the last twenty years.
Ditto!! As for the last 20 years...not enough people were paying attention, Dems especially. (The politicians and voters).
Well, I do not know if 'not enough people were paying attention, Dems especially' because I certainly was as were most of my cohorts and colleagues in my native Kansas City. We watched our state decline as it went 'red' and worked hard to keep Kansas City 'blue' but the bulk of the state just slid into MAGA territory as Trump took over the Republican party. That was one of the reasons that I left the state. I do think the Republicans were not paying attention to the fomenting unrest in their party. I was, because I was married to a disgruntled white male Republican. And I certainly know plenty of people active in all level of politics, so I'm not sure that I agree about people not paying enough attention.
I meant Dems in general and before the past 9 years, enough definitely weren’t. Also, Republicans vote on voting day, whereas Democrats don’t (historically). But statistically it somehow balances out (although it doesn’t feel like it).
I am sooo exhausted—as so many of us are, Corinne. I am relieved I have an exit plan in place, although I always knew I’d retire outside of this country anyway b/c it is very clear I won’t be able to afford to do so here in the U.S.
Adam, here is one topic we can never agree on. The creation of the Israel state was wrong in the first place. We cannot simply steal a homeland from one people and gift it to another. Zionism is inherently wrong. But once it was done, fait accomplé, it became moot. Israel exists, and has built a prosperous country - largely with our help and continuing massive support. Since its creation, it has practiced cruelty and oppression on the native population, much the same as we have on our indigenous people. They have taken everything, and given nothing in return. They continue to commit crimes against humanity and genocide....With. Our. Help.
This must stop.
Beautifully said, Paula.
The only way forward is, somehow, to cease looking backwards.
The rivers of blood spilled must become water under the bridge.
Thank you for your insightful letter. This war and America’s unwavering contribution to it does not bode well with many people, especially young ones. I am no pollster, but I am involved with many organizations where these people’s views are widespread. They are insistent on voting for Stein and in such an absurdly close race, Harris really needs those votes.
I wish those facts you mentioned—especially that they were close to a two state solution—were widely reported. I have heard nothing about them. I also don’t like AIPAC having the influence they do. I don’t like anyone doing that, but of course—that’s politics. 🙄 They made sure two Dem candidates running for office were defeated, simply because they voiced their anti war stance.
Hi Mari,
Thank you for your note. I too am praying for peace. I am concerned about Jill Stein, a spoiler who shows up every so often. Have you had any success in getting your young friends to not vote for Stein? She paid for by the right wing to install Trump who they would dislike. This is not the time to be a single issue voter. Please remind them what happened under Bush, because Nader wouldn't drop out
Perhaps some have! 🤞🏼 A lot of my participation is online via varying organizations and publications. I absolutely mention the 2000 election, and I also remind them that it will be even worse for Palestinians and other Arab nations under Trump.
I tell them that as much as I agree with some of their sentiments, we must support Democracy first. And continue to work from there.
I'm very skeptical there was a realistic proposal for a two-state solution. Politicians have been falling back on this for years and look the other way as settlements expand. At this point there is a fraction of the land that was once available for a Palestinian state. Settlements have taken much of the prime land and resources. What is left is fractured. Israel, under the argument that it's security must come first, will place many restrictions on a Palestinian state. This all boils down to a very difficult pill to swallow for the Palestinians - probably too hard without concessions. Given the turn in Israeli politics, and now the increased hatred, prospects for a two-state solution are dimmer than ever.
As for AIPAC they will seek to destroy anyone who begins to criticize Israel – even when it concerns basic human rights and freedom which I hope are still American values.
Well said Fred!
Exactly. To criticize Israel is to be labeled antisemitic. It's outrageous.
Israel is in a horrible situation, made worse by its leader. Imagine that the US was attacked daily by rockets from a hostile country. Do you think the US would stand for that? We would not.
Yet. Israel ignored many of these hits because of their iron dome which helped minimize civilian deaths. The rockets are shot at you daily, even hourly. How would you feel?
Then imagine that a group of Americans massacred, raped, tortured, burned people alive and filmed themselves murdering their fellow Americans. It's horrific is it not?
This happened to Israel only more unimaginable. So Israel when into Gaza which has no bomb shelters for its citizens. Just tunnels for Hamas to escape to. Yes, whats happening in Gaza is horrible. The deaths hurt my heart. In our synagogue we pray for the end of the suffering for everyone. Hopefully a new government can be installed in Gaza that puts its people first -and doesn't build homes on top of tunnels. One that doesn't it rocket launchers in the mosque, or schools.
Israel needs new leadership. Its citizens are calling for peace. I've heard that in Lebanon their people were helping Israelis to locate Hezbollah, as they want them gone. My father, a Marine in WW11 says war is hell. It truly is. And much more complicated.
I have been told that
First of al, thank you so much, Adam, for your stance on this issue. And Sally, thank you for expressing my thoughts as a proud Jewish American, and articulating the complexity of so many Jews feeling for the suffering of ALL of the innocents, loving Israel but hating its government, and experiencing here in the U.S. and around the world the skyrocketing of anti-Semitism. I agree that there is no way that Americans would stand for an October 7 happening here. On October 8 and this entire past year, Iran-backed Hezbollah rained rockets on Israel's north, ultimately displacing 60,000 Israelis, adding to all those who were displaced on Oct. 7, while Iran-backed Hamas deliberately hid among civilians. And now Iran is directly involved. Tragically, this trauma in Israel is underreported by major media. Israel left Gaza in 2005, and was about to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia when Hamas broke the ceasefire and attacked. So how much faith should they place in a two state solution, with one of the states run by an organization where the annihilation of Israel is in their very origin contract? It IS so very, very complicated...
Yes! I am very blessed. My dads really with it and even created a wonderful children's book last year - Oscar Goes to the Vet, about his best friend who's a WW11 Marine who became a veterinarian Im so sorry for the loss of your uncle. It's hard. May his memory always be for a blessing.
Your father is still alive? That's terrific! We lost my great uncle Clark 2 1/2 years ago at the age of 101. He always proudly wore his WWII Veteran cap.
And thank you for sharing your lovely uncle with me. I love seeing vets wearing their hats. 😊❤️
"simply because they voiced their anti war stance" Cori Bush had a lot of baggage besides her "anti war stance" of not supporting Israel's ability to defend itself, including the Iron Dome. Not many tears in St Louis when she was defeated.
Thank you for your input!
Do you much prefer the influence that AAPAC has? The two Dem candidates that got defeated had such a heavy baggage, they were destined to lose anyway.
I don't like ANY PACs. I think all lobbying should be outlawed as well.
What in your opinion is the influence that AAPAC has? I am assuming you mean the Arab American Political Action Committee and not the African American Parent Advisory Council.
Thanks for your input! I certainly don't know everything.
https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2510348&post_id=149932900&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2t8ed7&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxNzAwMzMwODMsInBvc3RfaWQiOjE0OTkzMjkwMCwiaWF0IjoxNzI4MzI5NDQ3LCJleHAiOjE3MzA5MjE0NDcsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0yNTEwMzQ4Iiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.4mp_EidHYlY5OPBUar9v2A4mOnbBmUFNtQFHOLmsY-4
For anyone interested in on the ground non MSM reporting.
Whoops! I didn't see that last sentence
“And, importantly, Egypt and Jordan need to be held to account for their refusal to allow civilians into their territory for refuge.” Amen!
When you say Israel is targeting Hezbollah, of course Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel unrelentingly since Oct 7 and 80k Israelis and Arabs living in Israel have been displaced from their homes. The lack of interest in understanding the region and quickness to condemn Israeli at every turn is most disconcerting. With the billions in aid Gaza has received since Israel left the region, they could have had another Boca instead of tunnels to destroy a neighboring country.
Israel has never truly “left” Gaza. What makes you think this?
They truly left Gaza and left behind a working water and electrical system. They even unburied their dead and took them out.
The human toll on all sides is tragic beyond expression, especially because of the centuries-old animosities stemming from religious differences. I am sick of religion seeding and in many cases amplifying hatreds among peoples and nations. We already have racism to contend with. We don't need more reasons to kill each other.
This region of the world has always been associated with tension and tenuous “peaceful” co-existence between Israel and the Palestinians. It has literally been ongoing for thousands of years. I believe Israel has the absolute right to exist in their own country and at the same time so do the Palestinians. That being said, Hamas bought this conflict on themselves by taking the gamble that they could kill Israelis and somehow the result would be favorable to them. Israel is in between a rock and a hard place with little choice but to defend itself and try to rescue the hostages. It’s absolutely heartbreaking that innocent civilians are caught in the crossfire. There are no easy answers for anyone involved in conflicts/wars in the Middle East. Thank you Adam, for the information today.
Thank you Adam for explaining this confusing and heartbreaking situation. I also appreciate what everyone else has written. It is easy to see why there are so many strong views with this crisis. I just know I worry about all this hate in the world. I've been praying for peace in the Middle East, Ukraine and here at home. This helps me feel I am doing something to aid these situations by turning it over in our 3pmEST short-prayer group 🙏. Hopefully Adam and his family are feeling our support too!
Adam thank you for this important message. Unfortunately So many college students have no understanding of the real world in the Middle East and become easy pawns of terrorists using these students to carry their message attacking Israel. If the United States would have responded to and attacked Hezbollah in 1983 after they killed 241 American soldiers in Beirut, Hezbollah would not be the strong terrorist group they are today. Terrorists get embolden when they are not punished for their horrible deeds.
Well, we also trained the very people who attacked us on 9/11. So there's that.
The goal of Iran and its terrorist groups—Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi—is to destroy Israel (and to cause the West to stop supporting it). The fact that the terrorists build their support system under civilian schools, hospitals and residential neighborhoods, whether in Gaza or Lebanon, proves that they are hoping to either hide there successfully or else to cause Israel to destroy civilians targets above the underground hiding places and cause this very chaos. The insidious evil behind the Oct 7th attack on Israelis and the holding of the hostages in those very tunnels proves that Hamas wants civilian deaths in order to isolate Israel from the Western supporters. If they had cared a bit about their own people, they would have returned the hostages, and never perpetrated the sneak attack on Oct 7. Nor would they continue to lob missiles and bombs at Israel.
The death toll amongst the civilian population is horrendous but needs to be laid at the feet of the terrorists who were given the vote of those very civilians in Gaza. Lebanon as well has been basically ruled by the terrorists, making the real government into a ghost. Of course Israel needs to take as much care as possible to protect civilians. But we need to weigh all these issues through a lens of truth and justice, which is difficult, but not impossible.
I do fear that young people tend to weigh issues through their feelings about things, which I suppose, is what the terrorist groups are hoping the West will do. As we know, the Trump approach is about stirring up angry and unbalanced emotions regarding issues not based in fact; we of all people should recognize that approach and not go down that road with the Palestinian situation.
Thank you for that Adam. You are absolutely correct in everything you said. Most depressing to us is the silence, if not overt antisemitism of our supposed allies after 10/7.
Adam says: "...Israel must carry out more precise attacks..."
Our own SF, SpecOps and CIA use this type of taking out targets to minimize injuring or killing noncombatants by means of a "scalpel," rather than spray and pray. The means to a successful capture or end of the target can only happen with the most up to date intel - HUMINT, SIGINT, et. al. Israel has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world - Mossad. Their training is intense, using small units of men and women; ergo, the scalpel. Remove the head of the snake, the rest typically follows afterwards.
I appreciate your insights and valid points. Israel indeed does have Mossad, thus I question the plausibility of Hamas getting through in the manner that they did. I’m no conspiracy theorist, but Bibi and the IDF have been looking for a reason for a full scale attack for a very long time.
The whole situation in the ME is just sickening and it isn’t going to end after this… 💔
This. I don't think it's unreasonable to question how Mossad, arguably the best intelligence agency in the world, had no clue. It's also hard to understand how one of the best trained and funded militaries in the world have such a hard time but killing civilians and aid workers. Is the goal to destroy Hamas, or is the goal to destroy Palestinians?
"Precise Attacks": We said that is what we did in Iraq and yet I remember news reports showing all the civilian casualties of women and children after our 'precise' attacks. And I remember the outrage of people here regarding that. There were increasing protests to end the war.
And their precision surgical techniques don’t seem to be working very well.
Thank you for bringing up this situation in the middle east!Netanyahu continues to fight the Hamas and now Hezbollah.He needs to get the remaining hostages out-cease fire!It is a very tough and confusing situation that is going on right now.